The Ramblings of an old Games Developer...

"Every now and again you need to go out and get really screwed up by drinking, just so you know why you shouldn't."

- Mark Penacho
Talking about going out and getting loaded at a party
Posted 2008/06/20 10:29:38 by Jake Simpson

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OnLive

So been seeing a lot about this OnLive thing - so while I was at GDC I went to look at it.

Ahh, it's that "lets render in a cloud and send video to your PC / Machine / Phone / SunGlasses" idea again. Nicely packaged and with some new compression it has to be said, but still, same idea.

So I seem a bit blase about this - why am I not excited about this?

I'll tell you why. Because there are some inherent issues with this that'll mean as a gaming experience this will result in a very frustrating and annoying experience.

Sure, it looks great on paper - you can play the latest Crytek game on your netbook PC and never worry about upgrading hardware ever. From the developers point of view it means the end of piracy as we know it. What's not to win?

So lets look at this a bit more. The idea is that somewhere there is a server farm with a high specced PC that's actually running the game you want to play. It captures the output video stream, compresses it and then squirts that along to you via the internet and your PC basically is just playing streaming video and sending back your keypresses / mouse movements.

Sounds great. Why am I down on it?

Because there's this inherent thing in the internet called Latency. It's the time it takes for a message to get from point A to point B. You've all heard of Ping - that's what this means.

So, there is also latency for the video compression coming out of the server client. It takes time to take that real time image and compress it down and send it on. OnLive are quoting about 80ms in total (for reference, 1000ms - millisecond - is a full second. One 60th of a second - where you run at 60fps - is 16.6666rms. So 80ms is 4.8 - call it 5 - frames at 60fps. one 12th of a second).

Now that's optimistic. They can control the speed at which the compression happens but they cannot control the latency and time it takes to get that one frame from their PC to yours. But lets say for arguments sake that it's bang on accurate. So it takes one 15th of a second between you pressing a button and you getting visuals on the reaction of that.

Ah wait, no it doesn't. Because your pressing a key has to be sent to the server first. Well, lets say that takes, oh I dunno, 32ms. That's 2 frames at 60fps.

So now we are at 7 frames response time right? That's ok, surely?

Um no. Because games *aren't* 100% instantly responsive. Games can take between 2 and 4 frames to respond to an input depending on framerates, how the game is coded, how fast the simulation is running and so on. Sometimes it's even worse - it depends on the genre and how fast the game needs to react. MMO's and RTS's for example don't need to respond in the same way that driving, fighting and FPS games do. The faster your game responds the crisper the control feels.

Anyway, so lets assume that it takes 3 frames at 50fps to actually show a response, which is what most of the best games do.

We are now at 10 frames. That's a 6th of a second. Best case scenario.

Now that doesn't sound like much but when you are moving a mouse around it's an eternity. It results in sluggish response, making the wrong decisions as you play and a damn frustrating experience.

And that's best case. The reality is that the real world experience is going to be nothing like that - it'll be factorially worse.

Playing at the GDC booth I could feel it in terms of sluggish response and those servers were 30 miles away with a dedicated line. On the real internet this is going to be terrible.

So hang on a second, how do real games do this bearing in mind they play on servers that are at the other end of the intertubes? Don't they have the same problems? Well yes, they do. But they get around it by a neat little idea called Client Prediction. The idea being that the game running on your machine has enough smarts to look at your input, make a best guess about what's going to happen when you press fire, and starts that action on the client before the server says "yes, this is ok". Since the rendering is occurring on the client and not the server the client can afford to do this, and if it's wrong (which is usually less than 5% of the time) it can just blend to the new state that the server says *is* correct.
However, once the rendering is occurring on the farm you can't do this any more. No more client prediction, which makes the latency problem suddenly much more important.

The trouble is that as a business idea it's great - it brings high end graphical loveliness to the masses. But it's based on a promise that "we can manage the latency" that simply isn't solveable currently - there's too much crappy hardware out there in internet land that just won't let this work.

I don't know what else to say. This might work for some MMOs and casual games that don't require fast reaction time but for everything else? Good luck.

My sad prediction is that this, unfortunately, is still born, which is a shame because a) we as an industry could really use this - it's a great idea from lots of perspectives and b) it's going to waste a lot of investor money who'll be burnt and won't invest in stuff like this again.

I hope I'm wrong.

Posted at 29/03/2009 10:55:34 AM PST by Jake Simpson
Groups : Game Development



Comments:


#1.

Well, you can discard the frames from game responsiveness - one of the sweet things about this idea is that you could throw as much horsepower as necessary at the game to get it to your required level of responsiveness.

That said, I will be surprised if it flies. T-Machine's blog as a good post that mentions an obvious soluton to latency (http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/) - have the hardware right in your ISPs NOC. That's pretty much what I had come up with the last time it got bullshitted around at work - it would have to be as local as possible.

If they do that, and the tech is good, then it might just fly. But it's doubtful. :)

Posted at 29/03/2009 04:22:06 PM PST by Jason Maskell



#2.

So in week one a top game sells 400,000 copies. How expensive is the render farm required to support that?

Posted at 29/03/2009 04:44:26 PM PST by Anon



#3.

The render farm to support that would be amortized across many games, so not too expensive.

Anyway, it will happen, just not sure it will happen quite yet. If it does, hooray!

Posted at 30/03/2009 08:37:00 AM PST by Jason Maskell



#4.

Just a little more perspective on latency: In 1993, I lived in Honolulu. The internet was in it's infancy, and not terribly useful for keeping in touch with the family on the mainland, so we spent a lot of time on the phone. This meant bouncing a signal off a satellite, and not some low-hanging LEO satellite, but a monster relay 22,000 miles up in geosynch. orbit, and even at the speed of light, that round trip for call and response results in a 1/8th of a second lag time. That doesn't sound like much, but it's enough to make it *very difficult* for the uninitiated to hold a normal conversation. People try to answer the question the person they are talking to just asked, but they hadn't stopped talking when you thought they did, and you end up talking over them. They realize that you've done that and stop to let you speak, only you've done the same thing, then you both apologise at the same time, and the rhythm of normal human conversation goes out the window.

That's right. 1/8th of a second's worth of latency makes it hard to talk. With your mouth. Something babies do. In something as complex as a combat game, it's a deal breaker.

Posted at 30/03/2009 11:37:40 AM PST by B.J. West



Workin' again.

I took a left fork at the career junction.

I'm working in LA now for an Animate Movie Production Company, doing Mocap work.

It's a fascinating experience, being part of the Movie Industry rather than games. One thing I've learnt so far is that the Movie Industry really knows how to take care of them selves. I've never seen such an amazing kitchen. Complete with Kraft Services Guy who cooks stuff all day, often to order.

Being on a working set is quite amazing and bleeding edge. The stuff I am learning is great and there's a real opportunity to make things look better than they do while development is going on.

I won't say any more about work - I might talk about being in LA away from family, but I want to maintain my rule on not talking about work in blog.

Posted at 16/03/2009 11:11:48 AM PST by Jake Simpson
Groups : Entertainment, Family



Fanbois

If you are even remotely connected to the games industry you'll be aware of the cult of Fanboi-ism.

Fanbois exist for pretty much any game out there and will show up in forums to viciously defend your game at the drop of a hat. They will devour information regarding a game, tearing it to pieces to extrapolate new information and generally argue with each other about the game itself, all the while not actually playing it.

However, there is another type of fanboi-ism. The quiet fanbois who will look for stories about their favorite developers but don't make a fuss about them.

I'm a quiet fanboi myself. I root for developers like Media Molecule (who have produced a masterpiece with Little Big Planet, even if it is a genre bursting game that no one quite knows how to categorize), Introversion who style themselves the 'Last of the Bedroom coders" who produce great games like Darwinia, Defcon etc. Totally my kinds of guys.

I also admire people like Ready at Dawn a bunch of guys in Orange County who are ex-naughty dog and are the purveyors of most of the quality games out there for the PSP like Daxter and God Of War.

There's also the NetDevil guys, who do the Jumpgate MMO. They had no prior experience and still managed to get an MMO out the door!

And also PlayMechanix slash Raw Thrills, a joint arcade development company in Chicago owned by my old friends George Petro and Eugene Jarvis. They have an uphill battle to own arcade market share, but if anyone can do it, they can.

What do all these places have in common? They are all small developer shops and right now that really appeals to my soul. I love the fact that they put their money where their mouth is, get to make the games they want to make and control their own destiny. I watch with great interest in how they make games and I wish them all the luck and success in the world.

It's good to have heroes I think.

Posted at 03/03/2009 09:34:29 AM PST by Jake Simpson
Groups : Game Development









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